Container for recovery: why the room matters more than the spa

Treating the room as a container for recovery. Right? Like that... That's where that guest is gonna spend the majority of their time thinking about that as an opportune... To help the guest recover. How would that change both the design principles but also the operation principles if we looked at it through the prism of this is an opportunity when they're in this room, in this container for the next fourteen hours to help them recover?

You almost never have a captive audience in that sort of state, and so it's like a huge opportunity. If you start showing, man, we could help you recover, you're gonna have... You're gonna have loyal... Keep loyalty beyond belief.

Welcome to the sustainable stay, a future of hospitality podcast and another conversation in our mental wellness in hospitality series. My name is Eijen Eickellebone, and today we're exploring the human side of hospitality. How do the environments we create influence the way we feel, how we function, and how we recover? We often talk about guest experience, comfort, and well-being. But what actually goes into creating those environments? How do they affect different people?

And how do we know whether they're really working? To explore this, I've invited three guests who approach the subjects from very different perspectives. Perspectives. Let's meet them.

Let me go to Sarah. Sarah Walker, welcome. Thanks so much for having me. Yes, of course. Sarah, let's start with you. Could you briefly introduce yourself?

Tell us what you do and why this conversation is important to you. Could be important to you. Absolutely. My name is Sarah Walker. I'm the principal founder and designer at Nuance Interior Design. And we're a global luxury interior design studio that focuses about 80% on residential, private residences in The States and about 20% on hospitality.

I, spent seven years of my twenty year career working with Nordstrom designing their stores, restaurants, spas nationwide. And what I really, am impressed by is that idea of incorporating wellness across every square foot of the, either hospital or hotel or spa and residents instead of just keeping it locked into a wellness suite. And so wellness through every square foot actually has a tremendous impact because we're so shaped by our environments, and that nervous system recovery ties into physical recovery. And and that's been a driving force throughout my career. We're gonna hear more about that, later on. Wouter, I wanna go to you.

Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your role at Q Hospitality, and how this topic connects to your work? Yes, Ari. And thank you of, for having me. My name is Walter Decker. I'm the chief operating officer, within the Q hospitality group. And, we are a Dutch based hospitality group, which owns, seven, 10 hotels.

What we do with the hotels is partly renovate, reposition, and improve operations. So this is a big part of my role within the company. And, yeah, we we do this from guest perspective as well as staff perspective, both. Okay. Cool. Keith, could you introduce yourself?

Tell us what you're working on at Umind and why this subject matters to you. Excellent. Hi, everyone. I'm Keith, Dickey, and I am the chairman and COO of Umind. We are a company that works in nerve nerve... Supporting both personalized neuroacoustics and ambient deploy standard neuroacoustics on the basic principle that environment influences state and then state influences capacity.

Whether that's the capacity to engage in the world class guest experience, whether it's the capacity to engage in the spa treatment that you're about ready to have, whether it's the capacity to engage in a good night sleep. You need... And so we focus on understand what is the mind need to have, what's the understanding of the human state that is the likely condition in order to support the experience you're trying to have? And why I care about this is is because you can't have that personalized experience or you can't have that personalized treatment without understanding the human being at a nervous system level. And this is paramount not only in hospitality, but we'll talk about this potentially and how it even applies in clinical settings as an example as in this podcast making. Fantastic.

Keith, thank you so much. And also Keith and you might thank you for being the founding partner of this series.

Sarah, I wanna go back to you. How did you get into this field? Why focus on the connection between our surroundings and well-being? And I have more questions, but I just wanna, just wanna learn a bit more about your story because it's quite a niche, what you're operating in. And I think it's a growing industry as well. So please enlighten me.

Great. It's... It is very niche. We're one of the very few interior design studios that integrates wellness at the depth that we do, and that's because the creative side of interior design doesn't always mesh well with the science side. And because I was born and raised in Dubai, my father was an environmental biologist. The science and the relationship with nature was very foundational for me.

My mother's into holistic medicine and art, and I grew up traveling extensively. And what I saw was really a disconnect between that experience that you can have in a cathedral or, you know, incredible art museum and then the experience that you can have in your home and sometimes even the hotel. And I realized that we are so deeply shaped by our environment, and it's a physiological response that we have when we walk into a space. And our brain registers, are we safe? Do we belong? Are we comfortable?

And that is the the kind of ethos that I wanted to bring into my design is really creating a foundation and an infrastructure through the design that allows the family to thrive or the guest. And when you have your foundation residential and and hospitality. Right? Okay. Just just... I want to have that emphasized.

Yeah. Okay. Thank you. And when you walk into that space and you feel supported, you're then able to go out into the world and make a bigger impact for good. And that's really our mission is how do we set up the infrastructure that is deeply personalized and tailored so that it doesn't create one more thing for the family to do or the guest. And the the idea that if it's, a supportive environment and it's restorative, it automatically is running that program in the background for you.

Things like lighting, acoustics, nontoxic sustainable materials, how the light impacts us, whether it's circadian lighting or natural lighting. We are deeply influenced by that. And and how healthy and happy we feel is a response to that.

And what really was the catalyst for this, beyond my upbringing is was I in college and getting my degree at an accredited school in interior design and art and business and having a wonderful time studying abroad in Italy. But about halfway through, I was in a severe car accident. And I'm fully recovered now, but I I realized a couple of things from that experience That if a home doesn't support you during burnout or a medical crisis or jet lag or raising children, whatever it might be, that it's failed as a home and as an extension, the environment in the hotel where you're going and trying to relax and restore and rejuvenate. And also that there's a lot of noise in the wellness space that, you know, great marketing and a lot of great promises. But what actually is going to move the needle and create that infrastructure that I was speaking about earlier? Nice.

Any questions from you guys for Sarah perhaps? No. If you go as some of that feel free.

That makes a ton of sense. Like, Sarah, that's the term. Like, we frame that, biological infrastructure. Right? The infrastructure, the frictionless, the seamless, the passive infrastructure that is there that's intelligently thought about and how to support the human being while they're engaged with that environment. That is absolutely what you're hitting on, and I think you're at the starting edge of what will become very, very common in terms of design, planning, interior.

Like, you think about a hospital. Right? Like, we're just now realizing in the hospital that, like, we can send people up to the ICU. The best we could do is send people up in the elevator to the top floor on the roof and then give them sunshine. Right? That's the best we can do for an ICU.

We know clinically and scientifically that sunshine helps people heal just across the board pretty much in every capacity. That's the best we can do. That's the best we can do is is ship people up to the top floor. Like, I mean, we're not even thinking about these things. Right? And so and and so I think you're on to something great with that for what it's worth.

Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah. There's a lot of scientific research, but it hasn't really translated into the built environment successfully. So to your point, yes, we talk about biophilic design, and let's create a... An environment that has lots of natural light and views of the outdoors. But what about when our air quality is toxic because we've put chemicals in the furnishings and the foam and the the cushions?

There's still all of the things we take for granted that are undermining us in that environment. And so it's really a two pronged approach where we need to take the negative things out, and we also need to put the positive beneficial things in to create a successful investment. I've had four or five people, maybe afterwards, talk about this, the approach that I just, you know, in... The concept kinda like a green building, but not a green building. Right? Like, for a...

Like a building for the nervous system. Like like, what would be a certification if you were to take a look? This is what we've tried. Anyway, so I don't know. That's just some backstory.

Let's go to Wouter. Very interesting. Wouter, because this is all about design. I've... I I had lunch with you. Great property you were responsible for.

That's beautiful. Tell me a bit more about, yourself, QHospitality, why it is, what you do, acquiring, developing, operating different hotel concepts. Go ahead. So, what's Sarah is saying makes a lot of sense, of course, and we try to, indulge these feelings also in our hospitality companies and try to feel... Make sure guests feel comfortable, feel good, but also recover as you said yourself. Also, when you have, for for example, a a big case of tiredness or other cases that you want to recover in hotel is one of the elements and, is the elements especially to, to feel welcome in an environment where you feel home and, and can recover from usually big travel, scenes and also, travel times that you've been through.

So, design is is is very important. People are looking also a lot from... Especially special designs where they, of course, feel comfortable, but also, feel intrigued by what they see and what they feel. And, yeah, this is something that we include in our designs in our hotels. Can you give me an example, Wouter? Sorry for interrupting.

But you say intrigued and... Yeah. It really depends on the area also. We have a lot of hotels through The Netherlands in different kinds of areas. Yeah. Let me...

Give me an example because you have beautiful hotels. One is in a prison and... I mean, go on. Go ahead. We have prisons. We have wellness resorts in the South.

Yeah. And and we all look at the surroundings of the companies, but also in the type of guests that come in the... Those companies and try to adjust our design also to the, the the people and the guests that come there and, the feeling that we want to give them in those companies. So, yeah, they're they're very, very different, and all the designs are, especially in our company, are totally sometimes the opposite from each other. But, yeah, we have five star properties that are really bombastic and luxurious and, have a little bit of the the the Dubai flavor inside, but we also have, yeah, the the wellness companies or Temet two thousand that we have in the South. They are very, quiet core, and, the surroundings and design is very relaxing and, adjusts to the wellness feeling and surroundings there, with our own spas, own, yeah, wellness facilities there.

So, yeah, it's it's... It really depends on location also.

Can I can I ask a practical question that's a little bit negative? And, Walter, let's say you had, you were gonna install an a... An HVAC. Right? Like, let's say you're... Like, let's do it as a new building.

Right? It's a new building, and then potentially you... You're doing a retrofit. But let's pick whichever one you think you wanna do. Who would be responsible... If I drop this, like, little anecdote here that, like, that Robin study was done in 2021, 600 u...

600 guests. Right? And 300 of them were trapped luxury of feeling more business. And basically, it said the number one complaint that they have for sleep is HVAC noise. HVAC noise. So who in your system, when you were designing or whatever, who would be responsible for sourcing the HVAC and then cross referencing it with the noise from a wellness perspective?

Just... I really just try... I'm just super curious. Right? Like Yeah. It's it's just a very interesting questions.

And I think these kind of perspective are sometimes undervalued in the design, especially Blois, and and sleep is something that, is actually basis, basis needs that you are selling as well. You're selling. Right? Yeah. It's what you're selling. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what you're selling. But, usually, the design and the feeling goes above of, for example, a practical thing as a AC noise or something that's working in inside room. So it's a very interesting, idea of, making this a point in the design of the room. It's sometimes really forgotten and, is something one of the most disturbing things in the room.

Right. It's crazy. Right? Like, Sarah, you you... How... What is your opinion about that?

The the the the the the background noises like that? It's a huge complaint. Really, when we're thinking about how to optimize the bedroom, there's, you know, a variety of metrics that we're we're looking at. Is the temperature, the breathability, and the, material type of the sheets. Is the mattress cooling? Is it smart?

Is it... Do we have EMF blockers? You know, all of these these different things. But, ultimately, my goal in any project is to have more than one expert weigh in on something like the HVAC system. So, typically, our projects have a project manager, an architect, a builder, an owner's rep, myself, an engineer, an HVAC specialist. And we're going to be really a check and balance system to say, are all of these things being considered?

Like, there are wonderful pieces of technology that are not only silent, but they have a really high level of filtration, and we can get real time updates on an app on your phone about what the particulate levels are and, you know, the noise level. So it's really about putting those decisions and front loading them as early as possible so that we're not having to put a drop soffit in the room that disrupts the line and architecture because we didn't have a big enough space for the the HVAC. You know? You need the certain size of openings to keep it really quiet. You know? All of these different things, it's it's a, I think, more successful the earlier you can make those decisions and the more people that are experts that can weigh in.

But a lot of times, they are forgotten, and in the end, they need to be soft. The the the checks are done when the rooms are built or they are ready, and then you need to solve problems usually of these kind of things. Yeah.

Yeah. And if you look at, like, when new minds when new minds is approaching and having conversations in... Inside of the hospitality, like, the the the the sales pitch, for lack of a better term, is, look, the first night effect is real. People are biologically more likely to stay awake. Right? And then also, no...

The the sounds literally say they're gonna be the... The HVAC's gonna be the most likely thing to keep them awake. If you give them these sounds, you're likely gonna combat that. That's a really low lift way to get in. But what I'm finding fascinating is is more value is not in... Yes.

The sound's there. It's in this, like, helping people understand that. Right? How to use that information is very hard clad, pretty much irrefutable. And it's really, like, this random and a tangent power. And this is what I want to talk to you about a little bit.

I'm learning this as I'm having more and more conversations truly in health care with this. Because in health care, this plays Umind as in, like, Umind plays... That concept is is the science says a person that is going to show up for a clinical intervention, be it chemotherapy or cognitive behavioral therapy, if they are well rested and regulated, AKA not stressed out, AKA not having the cortisol spike, Clinically, that says that they're more likely to be receptive to that. That's what the that's what the science says. Right? And it's the same...

We need to take this concept with the same level of rigor into hospitality Because that's how I'm getting that's how I'm getting conversations moving is with this, like, look. But you gotta translate it. Right? And that's a hard...

And that's why I specifically asked you, Walter, who to talk because that's the hardest part for you is I don't know who to talk to. I can't find the right person that's the decision maker in hospitality. In health care, it's easier because there's six or seven, but it's a structured organization that's already used to making that decision. In hospitality, you're not used to making a procurement decision for an HVAC and then being like, oh, by the way, I need to go talk to the wellness person. You just aren't doing that. And the reality says you should.

You should. That should be organizational best practice. Right? Usually, the the rooms are designed by, technical engineers also. So they approach the design of the rooms with the... Within the technical scope.

Right. Within the technical scope. Right? Like, it's the same way hospitals are designed. Like, they're designed to be able to house equipment, and they're never thought about the fact that there's a patient inside of that that's getting treatment. Right?

And this is what Sarah's been... She's over there saying, hey. Hey. This is all that. And she works with new home and smaller homes because it's easier there. The hard part is these retrofits.

Right? Like, it's retrofits when you gotta deal with... And that's a whole different load of kettle of fish there, but you don't even have a standard right now. Right? Anyway, so it's fascinating. It's really fascinating.

Thank you for that honest answer.

While you're at it, Keith, what happens in our body, and nervous system, when we get overwhelmed? Yeah. Like, we essentially... Like, the simplest answer, like... So there's two ways you look at it. Like, it's essentially a cup of water.

Like, this is, like, the constant of allostatic load that as you go through your day, small little disruptions happen. And then over time, that wears on you. Right? And you essentially need a reset. What's happening is that you're starting to accumulate various neurotransmitters, cortisol, adrenaline, and they're kinda like wearing out. They're basically are...

And you're kinda getting tapped out as that water gets filled up. And that's allostatic load stress, and then there's... This is like... That's like when you talk about it as a chronic perspective. And then there's acute stress that creates the cortisol spike. Right?

Now this can be a good good response in a short term athletic event. You have a cortisol spike before you go compete. Stuff like this happens. So there's good stress. But in workforce environments, what we find out... What we're finding out is is that these spikes in acute stress seem to be heavily correlated common sense to burnout, that people are actually exhausted, right, because they're wearing stress.

There's a, lack of a better term, biological cost of going through and living in a stressful work environment. Right? And that cost manifests itself in the nervous system that we pick up when we do the... What we do on that personalized level. And then... But but, again, how do you take that information and say, hey.

We know that your staff is struggling with these nervous system realities when there's not really a conversation... There's not really the person that you know who to talk to. And even if you do know how to talk to, the concept of nervous system regulation and how it ties to, employee burnout is very, very new. Right? And so that's a whole challenge in and of itself. I don't know if that answers anything or not, Aaron, or not for you?

That's good. So we have, creating environments as Sarah operating in environments... Operating environments as Wouter and understanding, the human responses.

Keith, I wanna build a bridge to a little experience that I had myself. I was invited by Wouter to, come to one of his, hotels, in Arnhem, and it was beautiful. We had lunch, and my plan was to to enjoy the environment, the the the surroundings, and have a nice dinner. But all of a sudden, I ended up during lunch in a COVID crash. I have long COVID, that happened six years ago. This month I was, hospitalized, was being put in the ICU and my life really never, got back to the same.

Very sensitive to overstimulation a lot. And my brain doesn't work the same as it does. And I'm not the only one. There are millions and millions and millions of people dealing with the same. And there are other illnesses there are. I mean, burnout has the the the similar symptoms.

So I want to present you guys these questions that I have. The...

Oh, yeah. How can we create hospitality environments that respond to such different human needs, especially when we don't even know what those needs are? And... I I don't know what I can expect from this question, but I want you guys to just jump into it because I think you know what I mean. Well, one of the skills that I think you need to have when you work in hospitality is, the ability to communicate on the right way with people, but also getting to know them and getting to know their needs and, know how to adapt to their needs before they sometimes themselves know what their needs are, especially what your question is. So I think, one of our skills that we need to have where we work in our industry is just by communicating with guests in the right way is getting to know them and getting to know their needs and adapting to them.

How do you do that? I... Do you... Can you give me an example? Yeah. You have a lot of practical small things, of course, that you can can you can name in in conversations that you have with guests, of course.

But, especially if you look at at your case, when you went to the room, you were you were tired and you need to... Needed to rest. Yeah. I slept for four hours, I forgot to say that. I slept for four hours in the afternoon. I woke up close to dinner time.

I didn't have the energy to go out for dinner. So I ordered something and I went straight to bed like a half hour later. I slept until the next morning. And I was, fatigued for a few days after that. That is a long COVID crash. It's like MECFS.

I mean, CFS, that's that's what it is. I'm happy to hear that the the AC didn't, kept you awake and and... It wasn't... I mean, that is what... I forgot to say that. When I checked out, I mean, the the the girl, she asked me, how was your stay?

I said, I slept amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's The bed was good. I mean, there was no noise.

But there were, of course, when you were in the hotel, there were a lot of, moments. I think that the service and the staff of of course could, took care of you also, and, look after you when you're resting. And and And I didn't think about that. I didn't need anything. And I also didn't think about, oh, if... What if I need something?

I was okay. I had the perfect room, but I didn't even think about that. But it's good that you say that. But good hospitality, yeah, takes care of their guests and also takes care of the people that, that stay in our house or our hotels and, try to find out their needs also because it's a struggle. Not everybody is sharing their needs very easily or very, very differently. So that's that's sometimes a difficult part in our job, but it's also the key to success and, give people experience that they remember, yeah, when they come back to to hotels.

Sarah, I can only imagine that when you design a residential, either hospitality or residential, that you also have to think about the needs and maybe not even know what they are right away. How do you do that? How do you do your assessments, and how do you find out that you're doing the right thing? Yes. A very thought provoking question because as I as I think through our process, we have a few different layers that allow us to solve this exact issue. The first layer is we have incredibly detailed best practices that are going to address things like multigenerational living, the variety of special needs that individuals have, things like neurodiversity, medical conditions, sensitivities to light noise, all of those sorts of things that we we put into the best practices to make sure that people are safe and comfortable and have the privacy that they want, for example.

The next layer is kind of a semi custom experience where, for example, a hotel room might have three different settings for the lighting versus a touchpad or a tablet where they're able to control every light to the tiniest detail, and then they get overwhelmed and they get frustrated and the tablet goes out the window. There is, I think really an appetite to make it customized to a variety of needs without overwhelming the guest. And then the next layer is having incredible support staff, that are dedicated to making that experience exceptional and giving them the tools to switch things out, to modify the spaces to better suit the needs at a at a higher level. But if we can allow people to have wellness integrated through every aspect of their stay, to have some level of self-service customization and flexibility and adaptability, and then set the staff up for success, we really have a a great recipe for that user client experience.

Yeah. You have you have a good example in in the hospitality also from a hotel chains called citizen... For example, where you, yeah, where you travel the world and your settings that you have, set up for your room, they change as you travel through, different cities. When you enter the room, they change to the last settings that you left in your room, for example. So you feel comfortable and your lightning and atmosphere that you created on the last time you stayed probably are the settings that you find comfortable with and feel, good with. And they change to the last settings that you have, for example.

So you feel at home immediately in your room when you book, the same room in a different city. You you travel half of the world, and, you still come inside the room and feel comfortable like the last time you did. Mhmm. Those preferences are key. Yeah. Very interesting.

Alright.

Okay. You said that the the word that came from new developments, because I didn't know that was possible. What other new developments do we have in this field? Yeah. That I don't know. I'm just...

This this question just pops up. I'm I'm just just curious. Sarah, do you have some new things that I don't know about? What you keep in mind? Were there tools that you use? Or, I mean Yes.

Short answer. Everything is coming with an app now. And there is, you know, an incredible amount of data that is readily available for our biometrics, for example. And the pendulum has swung very far one direction where we can monitor in your home, you know, or the the hotel bathroom, 50 different biometric markers. And then you go, great. Now what?

What do I do with this? And so what I'm seeing is the pendulum really swinging back the other way a little bit and saying, what are the key metrics that I need to know about my physiological response to a space, how I'm feeling, and then we tailor the environment to that. So things like, if you have sensitivities, it's really important that we're monitoring, you know, air and water quality for a lot of people. And what I'm seeing is that it gives people peace of mind when they can look at the app and they can see the data and they go, yes. This is what I'm expecting. Everything's all clear.

And so when we extrapolate that into that client experience and say they're looking for peace of mind and they're looking for that ease and comfort, how do we optimize for that, not for providing them a bunch of biometric data that most of which they don't understand how that's actually applicable to them and what they need to do next? And and so we are helping our clients and and the hotels that we partner with to sift through that and say, how can we meaningfully impact the client experience so that they have that peace of mind when they stay? Yeah. This is the Oh, go ahead.

I was just gonna say that you I think from a hotel perspective or, like, hospitality... Again, I come from the electronic medical record world. Like... So this is... Like, I see a massive gap. I think I've said this on every podcast, Lauren, probably, a massive gap in terms of the collection of private health information, whether you're doing it through biometric data or whatever, and then using that information to personalize an experience.

Right? That's where this world is moving down at what you... And and what Sarah is saying is we're gonna filter it out and all accept the data that matters. Right? Which... That's that's fine.

That's right. I think that it's right. But doesn't solve the fundamental fundamental problem of the moment you're trying to make an operational decision based upon private health information, the the the infrastructure, the technology, and the processes have to be very different. Right? Because you're now running private health information through an operations, and it's gonna touch various systems, various people that are not your... And and the...

I I see. I don't know I don't know why no one sees this right now, actually. I don't know why no one's sitting there saying, hey. Yeah. If we see the world going towards personalization and the... And customization through understanding some level of biometric data, How are we gonna reconcile that with the reality that we have almost no technological and process infrastructure...

Operations infrastructure set up to handle and make any sort of decision with private health information? I would love to hear someone's thoughts on this. Yep. And maybe it's too much too much data or too much, across... You couldn't be right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It would be very interesting to use the data in customizing the experiences, of course. Mhmm.

And I get I get your point, Keith, that I don't recommend running someone's private data through any systems in my world. Like, as an interior designer, that's that's not my goal. My goal is to say, you know, if these types of environments... If your, you know, personal device says that your cortisol goes up and your EKG registers as higher when you're in this room, let's figure out why. Let's figure out what's triggering you so that we can remove that stressor and make sure that we're creating environments that are supportive. So I have a client, for example.

He's he's lived in his home with his wife for years, and they're expecting their first child. They design a nursery, and, it's, you know, just your your quintessential nursery, very calming, peaceful, quiet. Guess where he wants to go when he comes home from work every day? The baby isn't born yet. He goes and sits in the in the nursery in the rocking chair and decompresses. And so my theory that we've been working off of for twenty years is if we can create an environment that when you open the door and you walk into the room, it lowers your heart rate, your cortisol, and you feel like your nervous system is able to reset, you know, that glass analogy that you were talking about earlier.

If we're able to start dumping out that glass when you walk in that door, that is a successful project for us. And that's what we care about, those biometrics.

Yeah. I I think on an individual scale, I think it's a I think it's a great articulation of the service and how it works. Right? I I I... It makes sense. My, the the the the the...

Playing devil's advocate, I guess, on this, and thinking about it at scale. When you know that that person's heart rate is spiking because there's... They're in this room, that's the challenge. How did we get that operational information? Right? That at scale is very slippery slope that...

Because you wanna make a ton of offer... You just said, I'm gonna... Let's find that out. Let's make changes based upon. But based upon what? Based upon private health information that on an individual level, they chose to share with me on some extent.

And I get it. I'm I'm using an example, but we see where this goes. Right? Like, to... In order to know that, we have to acknowledge at some point, we're gonna almost certainly collect information that is going... Just like we do now.

We collect it on a pillow. But instead of that, we're gonna collect on a pillow preference. We're gonna collect, hey. This is your lighting preference. We know that is your lighting preference. And if it causes this cortisol spike.

Eventually, I think that's where we're going. I don't know how... Who's gonna solve it technology wise. Just my And my goal, I think, as I partner with, you know, places like Leicester University in The UK, is that we're going to have enough of this more empirical data where people are volunteering this information and being able to create more of a general extrapolation of... And just like we've done with color psychology for for decades, just like we've done for, you know, certain textures and noises and all of these things that eventually we we don't actually have to have super private personal data to get a good enough data set to make some some really great decisions that inform that standard best practices. Yep.

Yep. For sure. For sure.

What should, the hospitality and also residential, well, we're talking about it anyway, what should it look like if five years from now? That is, what I wanna ask all three of you when it comes to, yeah. Keith, go ahead. I mean, I mean, I see in the most extreme examples to where someone... They're not carrying a phone anymore, but they potentially have a device on them or a chip that's being read or potentially their eyes are being read, and they've uploaded their data, to a level of... And then the environment manifest and changes around that in terms of this is the lighting I want.

This is the food that I want. This is the times of the day I want my food. This is my schedule that I have. I I think that's absolutely where the ultra luxury will go. And personalized less hassle. Extremely personalized to the extreme extent, to to full on extent to where...

But... And then I think the balance will be at scale where does luxury hospitality is for the masses draw the line and say, well, this is the best practices, and we don't we don't ever wanna collect private health information. So we just always live in this world of getting close to personalized, but never truly all the way there. But I think within five years, we absolutely have smart environment that adjusts to the physiological responses of the human being in a very sophisticated manner across a multitude of clinical conditions, behavioral and personality conditions, and even mood conditions. The environment or the situation you have. I know that I'm gonna arrive, and I'm gonna have a...

My date night on my calendar says I have date night tonight. Right? What would my environment and my room look like there? Right? Like, these are all... And so I think that's where it'll eventually go over the next five years.

I think five years is re... Is a is a expected timeline. I don't think that that's gonna be too quick or too slow. I think that'll happen in five years. How are you guys anticipating on that? I mean, technology is going so fast, Sarah and, and Bauter.

Shall I go first? Yeah. I think the basic principle of, of a hotel will probably be always the same. It's been the same for a lot of hundreds of years, with offering comforts and rest. And, I think a lot of technological gadgets and surroundings, will be added in the stay and in the room to make, people feel more comfortable, but also using it in their own personal space with with the data that they, supply. But I think the the basics of of of hoteliers, but also hospitality, will probably always be the same, but with a lot of help from technological benefits.

Mhmm. I agree. I think that, the thing I would add is that we're seeing a shift away from amenities, environments that are supportive and regenerative, and, of course, as we discussed, deeply personalized. But saying that, you know, come to our hotel because we have a wonderful spa and a sauna and cryotherapy and, you know, all of these different things is great. And what about all the other square feet of the of the house or the hotel? How are we addressing the experience and the integration of a restorative environment at every layer with every decision made intentionally for that experience.

And so shifting away from amenities to more of that restorative environment holistically is gonna be huge.

Yeah. Treating the room as a container for recovery. Right? Like that, that's where that guest is gonna spend the majority of their time thinking about that as an opportune... To help the guest recover. How would that change both the design principles but also the operation principles if we looked at it through the prism of this is an opportunity when they're in this room, in this container for the next fourteen hours to help them recover.

You almost never have a captive audience in that sort of state, and so it's like a huge opportunity. If you start showing, man, we could help you recover, you're gonna have... You're gonna have loyal... Keep loyalty beyond belief.

That is... It's a very different perspective. Usually, it's it's it's it's, designed and built within the other way around. Designers like the design or they feel creative and they start building and making beautiful hotel rooms and things, and that's from the guest perspective. Usually, a lot of hotel designers actually or architects, they forget a lot of the guest perspective view in in the in the room also. So I think it's very interesting to see important to have people like Sarah, I think.

Right? Yeah. For sure. That's absolutely true. Sarah's doing the good work. For sure, she's doing the good work.

And I like that So, Sarah, how do you experience hotel rooms, in generally when you stay in hotel rooms? What what do you think goes wrong there? Because this is very interesting because, you approach it from from a very different angle as I hear. No. That's very kind. I think what I see often is really the same as we see in ultra high net worth, private estates is the prioritization is on the aesthetics, the beauty of the the space, and then how it supports the functionality and the feeling, like that physiological response, is secondary if it's addressed at all.

And I really would love to see the narrative shift to how is it supporting the physiological response, your biological needs? That container for recovery is is so spot on. How does it function? And then, of course, it's going to be beautiful, but why are we prioritizing that when that is the least impactful to the customer experience? Yeah. Yeah.

Very well said.

Just well said. If you look at if you look at airport hotels also Mhmm. Like, airport hotels, you know, they they... I think that they are the most comfortable places that you can find within a airport, location. And if you want to recover, this is one of the most, yeah, prior locations that you want to offer this, of course, to you.

Yes. I I just... I I really think that if we looked at it as an opportunity, like, think about a gym, they would kill to have ten hours of someone's time to be able to improve them. Or you guys got ten hours of people's time. Right? Like, I I...

What is the opportunities that we can do to support? I think if we... Just even having that conversation, going into a a a leadership or a management Walter, and just saying, hey. What if we just thought about it this way or someone pushed back on me? Right? Because the the, the interesting thing is is it's kinda like everyone's waking up to this at the same time.

And I think Sarah's saying, no. No. That's not true because I've been doing this for twenty years, and she's right. She has. But there seems to be this kind of massive, like, awareness that seems to be building over the last probably, I don't know, six months to two years in terms of the awareness that really the environment has a huge amount of the impact of the state of a human being, and the state of that human being has a huge amount of impact on the capacity to enjoy this life and enjoy the experience. And so maybe more of it's to come.

Yeah. Definitely. And it... It's a very interesting view. And, if I can be honest, it's a view that I didn't hear much from my industry yet because, hoteliers tend to to know or to think they know their guests and what they need, especially of looking the other way around. Yeah.

And I said, this is where I told Aron, like, ninety seven percent... Flywire did a study. Right? Ninety seven percent of luxury travelers expect... Let reduced stress and improved recovery on their hotel stays. Like, if you're not...

If you're if you're not... No. I mean, if you're not... If you're looking for a signal. Right? Like, I mean, it's just...

Yeah. It's so... It's very important. I like the, I've I've wrote it down. This is gonna be a subtitle, container for recovery. Oh.

Thank you, Keith. No. I really like it. I thought it's Sarah. I like it too. I'm like, that's a good one.

Because they Take it away. Thank you, guys. Go for it. Go for it.

Guys, anyone has a final thought that they wanna share? Walter, thank you for your honesty in, like, sharing that operationally with me. I think that was very enlightening for me. And I think, hopefully, some of the guests will find that enlightening in terms of people that are trying to talk into the hospitality world and understand how to communicate to you. This this has helpful. Right?

Like, it's not... The conversation is new to you guys. And so it's an obligation on me and people that are trying to bring this into this space to learn how to translate and to speak the language that you're comfortable with to move the conversation forward. So that was super helpful. So thanks for sharing that. Yeah.

Thank you so much. You too. Alright. And I wanna thank you guys for, joining, this podcast today for be... For being my guest or our guests. It was really nice to hear your thoughts, and it won't end here.

Just wanna thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Alright.