'De Irene-knop': waarom beroemdheden geen eventplanners googelen

So I got a call from, for example, MTV in London and it was so funny because I picked up the phone and was like, hello, this is MTV London. We heard that you're the best party planner in the Netherlands and I was like, is this a joke? And I was like, yo, you're right, you're right, that's me. Welcome to our podcast, The Future of Hospitality. I am your host, Arjen Eickeleboom and today our guest is Irene Avogadri, event and destination consultant. And not your average one because with clients, celebrity clients like Justin Bieber and Ed Sheeran we have someone special here, Irene, Irene or Irene. Welcome to our show. However you want to pronounce it. Thank you, Arjen. Well, in English people pronounce your name as Irene, but I know you as Irene. So let's call it Irene as you are. Irene, tell us who you are, what you do exactly and why and let us dive into your amazing profession and all your experiences. Thank you. What a warm welcome. Can I come more often? Go ahead. Okay, okay. So my name is Irene Avogadri. Avogadri is an Italian name because I was born in Sardinia in Italy and with an Italian father and a Dutch mom from Amsterdam living in the Netherlands now, mom of two boys. And like you said, destination and event consultant. Yeah, I like that title. So tell me some more about your, what made you decide to become a consultant? No, let's first go to the core of it. How did Justin Bieber come in the picture? No, then we need to start from the beginning. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. That whole story is a bit crazy. Yeah. So, okay, your question before that was how did I, if I had the dream of becoming an event and that's not, I didn't, I didn't know. I didn't like school. I didn't like school. I didn't like homework. I like school, but I didn't like homework. And I just knew I want to do something with maybe travel the world or, I think it was that. And then I did a private school for tourism in Amsterdam. Only because it was only one year. And then I was finished. Which one was that? Which one was that? The name was? The World Travel School? It was a private school. The World Travel School, perhaps? The World Travel School. Yeah. I went through that one. No, you did not. 1991. No, yes, that's where I was. Yeah, that's where I did my, oh my God, we didn't even notice. It was the Hague in Amsterdam back in the days. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. We have that in common. Wow. This is so funny. That was also by, graduated in all, all subjects and became a KLM one and two I had a specialist. Yes. This is so funny. So we went through the same school. Oh, wow. Okay. We didn't even know that. And the only reason I did that is because all the other educations were like three or four years. And I just wanted to work. I didn't like school. I was like, let me do this, then I have something. And then I'll just, you know, try it as a cabinet attendant or whatever. And let's start there, travel the world. Oh, wow. Well, it didn't work out that way. Go ahead. I went to, it's like this office where they have the job mediation. And I went there to look for a job in the meantime. And they were like, you're interesting. Why don't you come work here? Like, well, why not? I don't have a job. So let's start. I did that for three years, making people happy, I guess, with jobs. And I love the fact that even the people didn't know what they wanted, that I gave them something that they went to with a big smile every day and when they went to their job. But at the same time, I was the one in, it was in Amsterdam, Southost, Amsterdam, Southost. I was the one in the office where we had like, I think, 30 staff members. I was the one who was like, oh, let me plan the event, the summer event, or the event for all the, how do you say that, all the employees that we got at all the jobs. And so I knew that I liked the organization and the planning part. So after that, after three years, it was either you become a manager at the office, or you were going out to do something else. And that's what I did. So I started working as an event planner for a company in Amsterdam. But after two years, I loved it. And after two years, they decided to close the Amsterdam office and go to Rotterdam. I didn't want to go to Rotterdam at that point. So I was without a job, but no panic. I think that my mentality is always like, ah, things will work out fine. No problem. We'll see. And then I got offered a job as an artist manager, which is like completely something else. So I started working for artists. Well, I say completely something else, maybe not, because it was also like trying to make the best for the artist. So maybe not a job, but still their own job and their own image. And how did you get there? I mean, because you may make a huge jump from event planner to artist manager or planner, whatever. Well, I don't know. Yeah. But how do you get there? I mean, because that is a solid door, you need to open that door first. I mean, they don't see you. Hello, I'm Marine. No, how did that work? I don't know what it is. But I think that in my life, I always, I don't know if I create them or they're created for me. But I always have these circumstances where I meet people and then things start. More of attraction, what you send out comes to you. I think so. I don't know. So what I did, I went to another office for job mediation, et cetera. And they were like, well, you know what, we have this artist manager and he needs a new assistant for just for a period of three or four months because his assistant is pregnant and I was like, well, let's do it. So I had the conversation, no experience, nothing. And I started working for him. And then the lady didn't come back. So I stayed longer. And then I changed office to another agent where I became the artist manager. So that's kind of how it went. Yeah. I think in life you need to, what I, I'm a mom, what I tell my boys is yes, you need certain certificates or, you know, education. It depends on what you want to do. But I think that the lesson that I really try to learn them is just work, work the hardest, you know, work the hardest. And plus, if you want to have success, it has to be your passion. That's what I was going to say. I'm so glad you say that. I believe in that too. If, I mean, the podcast, I couldn't have dream, like last year, you know me well, last year, around this time, if you'd have told me, are you going to do podcasts, I would have said, you're crazy. I mean, I was still recovering. And but I started, I was like, let's go through it because I think I will like this. Something told me, this is something that because hospitality, I love hospitality. That's, that's my passion. And I cannot, I mean, cannot lie. I mean, this is the best I've done in many, many, many years. It's having these conversations, honestly. And you're doing such a great job. Oh, thank you. And it gives me so much energy because I, it's sharing energy. And like you said, go for it, but it needs to give you energy. That's the word, I think it needs to make you happy. It makes you make you feel good. I think then you have that, that energy that flows around, you send it out, you get it back. And that is the road to success. Whatever success means, I mean, it doesn't have to be a financial success per se, but success is when you feel good and you make other people feel good. That's what I believe success is about. But go ahead. So you ended up at that moment, artist manager. Tell me some more about that. What did you do? So as an artist manager, it depends on what the artist requires. It went from you have like doing the contracts when they're, you know, when they have the television deals or radio deals or when it's a performing artist on stage, you need to stay in contact with the booker for the shows that they do. It's image building, you know, what is it that you want to show the world? How can we get there? So it's a lot. There were artists who were like, oh, can you help me with the mortgage of my house? Trying to do the finance. How can I do that? Advice, not that I'm the advisor, but I will reach out to the people that are, you know, specialized in that. So yeah, it's a lot. And also here, it's serving, you know, you're serving people. That makes it rewarding, perhaps? It does. For me, it does. Yeah. And I just love to make people happy, you know. And maybe that's the thing that is equal. Artist manager, you're trying to make people happy. And with events, you're trying to make people happy too. And to me, that's very rewarding. Absolutely. Yeah. When, because the question that pops up, I mean, you get to know a artist, you need to do the work with them. How is the first contact? Because I can only imagine, you get to, you have first, after you get to know one another a little bit, when is, when does the moment arrive that you think, okay, I got the trust now? Is that a process? I mean, the office that I, or the agency where I started working, the artists were already in. So it weren't that I needed to attract new artists or anything. Mostly once they know you, I mean, it's a small world. So when an artist is looking for a manager, there weren't a lot of managers, you know, there were a few, but so it's people work. So it really needs to click. Can you say that in English too? Like you really, you need to, I mean, you, you do have, it's like a relationship, like, like a marriage, you know, you work really tight with each other. So it has to be something that, that, you know, has a little spark and energy. So I think that's, that's the best thing. And with some artists, you have that immediately with some, you can build it and with some, you don't have it. And then you just need to decide, like, no, we're not a good match. So no. Can you tell me, well, the artists that you have a good connection with and still have? Oh, yeah. Well, one of them, I started doing the management for, at that time, Rosanna Lima was a stylist, fashion stylist for a lot of artists for their television shows, for their performances, et cetera. Now she's known for a lot of years as Rosanna Clouford. She's married to Petrie Clouford for those who are watching and know a little bit about soccer. Yeah, I mean, we, actually, it's a really funny story because when I had my job interview at the agency where I started working, I was sitting there with the CEO and all of a sudden this little Tasmanian devil entered the room and that was Rosanna. And she was like, oh, I'm so sorry. And she's so full of energy still. And she was like, I'm so sorry. I need to sign something. Okay, bye. I'm out. And she was out again. I was like, okay, hi. And she came back in in like two minutes. And she was like, Oh no. And we were like, what happened? And she said, they broke into my car. And we were like, what? And what they did, she she had this big show for the Eurovision Song Contest. And for the national edition. So she had like 20 or 30 different fashion sets that's fly in her car. And they stole it. Oh my God. And and she had to show like the next day or something. So she was totally panicking. And what I did, because the CEO was like, what are we going to do? And I was like, okay, your bank, your insurance, and I started calling while it was my job interview. So we had a bond for life. And she told the CEO, that's what I heard later. She was like, I don't care what you need to pay her. What car she wants to drive, but you're going to hire her. Oh my God, what a great story you prove yourself on the job interview. Actually, yes. Yeah. That is amazing friend for life. Yeah. Wow. All right. So you met quite some artists, high profile soccer players, as you mentioned, Patrick Gleiver, he's one. There are many more, of course. So at what moment you decided, I'm going to start my own business. Well, something personal happened. My, the father of my children, we didn't have children at that time, but we were partners for five years. He became really ill. He well, long story, but he got into a coma. And they didn't expect him to wake up at that time. So it was a really, really difficult time for, I think three months he was in a coma. So yeah, that took a lot for me, the family, but also my job. And again, Rosanna was the one who really, from the artist, we were friends already, but we only became, the bond only became tighter. Stronger in that stressful moment. And she was immediately, she was like, I don't care what you need, but I'm here for you. And when fortunately, my, the father of my children, he became better, but he had to learn everything again. So it was a process of like 10 years, where I was a caregiver for him. And even at that time in the beginning where he couldn't do a lot, Rosanna and Patrick were like, you have to come and eat here. We're having a barbecue and you're a special guest. And we were like, I was like, no, no, you know, I don't want to bother anyone because maybe, you know, he couldn't walk very well. And they were like, what, we're going to pick you up, you know? And so that's where we bonded really, really strong. And then at one point she said to me, you know what, I think we need to start our own event company. Okay. So we did with another friend, Anouk Smulders, who at that time was a professional and international model. And she wanted to join. We started the class company and we started, the idea was a high end event company. Yeah. This was in 2007, I believe. Yeah. Okay. 18 years ago. Really impulsive. But that's those are the best. I mean, come on. Tell me more because I mean, I'm on the edge of my seat. Tell me more from that moment on. What happened? How did you evolve? Well, the first event that we were doing as a test case, because Rosanna was expecting a baby at that time, she was expecting her son with Patrick. So it wasn't Dutch at all at that time, because this was 2007, 2008. We did not a baby shower. I think you call it a sip and see. I think that's the name in the so yeah, cramped in Dutch. It's like when the family and friends are going to meet the baby for the first time. You know what? I have no idea. So we did it in the castle here in Holland. Of course. Everything was blue and it was so not Dutch. So not Dutch, you know. What do you mean by that? So not Dutch. I mean, I think I know what you mean. The Dutch way of doing stuff is very demure and keep it low key and don't go out of your way. Don't show yourself. Don't show much shiny stuff. Exactly. It was the opposite. This was like the way they do it in the U.S. Exactly. Yeah. This was like the Kardashian way. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So, well, I mean, the castle, all the details, you know, the styling. I mean, here in Holland, it was basically, oh, let's have like 10 balloons and we put some little pieces of cheese on the table. We sit all around the table in like a circle. We sing and that's it. That's the celebration. Yeah. And don't get me wrong. This is not how all Dutch people do it. But this is how, yeah, I think this was mainly it, especially in 2007. And we wanted to do it like, I mean, I'm Italian. Rosanna is Portuguese. We knew how we celebrate, you know, in our families, we celebrate things really huge, like, you know, extra celebration. We think about styling and food and a lot of people and music. Celebrate. So this is what we wanted to bring to the Netherlands. But to be honest, in 2007, we weren't ready yet. Well, we were ready, but the people weren't ready. So we really needed to build. Yeah. But we did a lot of great stuff. So, you know, after one or two years, people were like, maybe we should do this. Why not, you know? And yeah, that that's when we did the wedding of Leslie Snyder and his wife at that time, Yolanda Cabau, which is also a high profile soccer player in the Netherlands, right? Yeah, he's a soccer player. She has a, well, she lives in LA now and has her own Netflix reality show at this point. Oh, okay. Yeah. So a celebrity couple here. And it was a four day wedding in Tuscany, Italy. So I think that at that time, people knew who we were, what we could do. And yeah. You delivered. And that was that was been seen. Yeah, delivered. Okay, move on to the other high profile celebrities. International. Yeah. So in 2011, unfortunately, Rosana became ill, like really ill. She's totally fine now. Thank God. And Anouk, she was going to host Holland's next top model. So unfortunately, they couldn't proceed with the class company. And I had to ask myself, do I want to do this by myself? Yes or no? And I decided yes. And I, like I said before, I don't know what it is, but I always kind of attract all these special, not only special people, but special occasions and circumstances. I don't know what it is. So I keep saying it. Yeah, no, it's true. True. True. Go ahead. Yeah. So I got a call from, for example, MTV in London. And it was so funny because I picked up the phone was like, hello, this is MTV London. I heard we heard that you're the best party planner in the Netherlands. And I was like, is this a joke? You know? And I was like, yo, you're right. You're right. That's me. And then they wanted to do this show. They had to show a worldwide super, super sweet worldwide or something. And it was like all these sweet 16 parties. And they did one in Columbia. And they wanted to do some something in Holland. And I was like, okay, let's do it. So I always attract like special things like that. Good. Now, all of a sudden, I had a horrible day at work. And it was, I think 9pm. And I had the idea, you know what, today I'm just gonna dive into my bed. It's enough. I had a horrible day. Well, and the moment I wanted to get into bed, I received a message from a dear friend of mine, who a Dutch gentleman who lives lived at that time in New York. And he sent me this message and I read it. It was like, hey, I read, could you do a viewing for three villas tomorrow afternoon for JB. And so I said, who or what is JB first of all? And he was like, oh, I'm so sorry, Justin Bieber. So I was awake. My mood was gone. And the only thing I thought at that time was, okay, so I have an event tomorrow, like a big media event the day after. You know what, I'm going to call one of my assistants to help me tonight, arrange this, because of course we're going to do this. And the other one, I'm not going to say anything to her. She needs to focus on the event. I'm not going to say anything. I don't want to stress her. So that's her thing. Well, I did ask him a question. Why are you asking me? Because like villa viewings, that's not really what I do. Good question. What did he say? And he said, yeah. And he said, well, if something needs to be fixed, you just call Irene. Wow. And I heard this. That was your name. That was your name in the ether. It was like, okay. I guess. And I heard it before. There was another, well, like an international artist. And he said to me, we all have this Irene button in our phone. It's like when you need help, you just press the Irene button. So this is like a big compliment, I guess. That is a big compliment. Before you continue, it was a good question. That's why I said, but what makes you that good person, you think, for that, the perfect person for that? What makes me, sorry, I didn't hear the question. What makes you the perfect person? What makes make them put you under the speed dial? What is it? First of all, first of all, I think I, I, I fix it. You fix it. Yeah. Yeah. Even if it seems, even if it seems impossible, you do it, make it possible. Yeah. And I just love that idea of like, what do you mean we can't do it? Of course we can. You know, it's like you said at the beginning, once you, if you want to do it, do the best you can. That's what you said earlier in this podcast. You said, do the best you can, because that is what you need to do. I want to make them happy. I want to give that smile. Wonderful. That's the answer that I wanted to hear. That's my main goal. That's my main goal. And they know that. They see that and you do. Yeah. We fix it. It doesn't matter, even if it's the middle of the night, you know, not too often because I'm getting older too, but yeah. So yeah, I just love to fix things and even make a little bit, give them a little bit extra. So it's even more than that they expected. You don't just give what they ask. You deliver the whole package that comes, that belongs with that little thing that they ask you or big thing that they ask you. That's what I try to do. Yeah. That's what I try to do. I see it. I totally, I see why they want to have you. I think another thing, once you start working with artists and especially international artists, I always, because I don't do, I mean, I do some stuff alone, but I always have like a team, you know. Of course. And one of the things that I always tell them, I mean, I don't need to tell them anymore, but we don't ask for autographs. We don't ask for pictures. We just do the job. And we don't ask for anything. They are the ones asking us to do something, but we don't ask anything for anything. Know your place. Yeah. Well, know your place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But they all sign an NDA. You know, I need to sign an NDA, but my crew needs to sign an NDA for me too. This is not our job. Our job is to make the people happy. And that's what we do. The rest is not important. And then, of course, afterwards, you know, I will proudly tell the world that I had the honor of, you know, working for Justin and his team and for Ed Sheeran and yeah, of course. What's it like with such high profile clients? Is the pressure different? Well, first of all, mostly you work with their team. You know, it's not that you're one-on-one with them all the time. They have their own team, their family, actually. So it's really important what type of team they have. And my experience is that, for example, all the stories with, you know, I only won Blue M&Ms and, you know, breaking down the walls with all the art and I've never experienced that. They have really professional teams, really professional teams. And I think that's another thing that the chemistry works well because their professionals, I believe I'm a professional. So, you know, the communication goes smoothly. And, you know, you immediately know what somebody wants. Okay, I'll get it. I'm on it, you know. So, yeah, it goes really, for me, it went really smooth. What I like in your story is that you didn't try to put yourself out there on that level and try to deliver. They came to you and you were like, hey, okay, I can do it. But you didn't break. You didn't, you know what I mean? You just were you and you're still you. And that's what I really like about you and appreciate about you. That's what I think makes you so successful. It's the humbleness, maybe even, but professionalism. I mean, there's a lot of labels that I can use. I hate to hate labels, but that's what I think. So, maybe I'm, first of all, thank you because this is a huge compliment. Maybe this is one of my superpowers too. I hope it is. I hope it is. There once was, there was somebody who told me, you know what I like about you? I think it was at a television set or a music studio, I don't know. And they said, you know what I like about you? Is that you treat the CEO exactly the same way as the camera guy. And I was kind of surprised when they said that to me because I said, of course I do. But to hear it was a surprise, like, no, that's not how it goes. And I was like, well, this is how I work. So, yeah, and this was one of the biggest compliments somebody could ever give me, because this is how I want people to know me. Like, I really try to treat everybody with same respect. And it's your confidence in that, that attracts people. Trust me, that's exactly what it is. Without, no, destination consultant, tell me some more about that. What does that tell? So you just had a sneak preview of that because that's exactly what I did for Justin and for Ed Sheeran. Once I started, so I started with his head of security. We went to the three villas and it's like a side visit. So you need to check the houses and I never did that. So it was so funny. So you show the houses and one of the houses was of one of my friends. So, thank God, I knew the place. So it was, in the end, it was that house that they chose because I could tell like all the details of the house, of course. So, but to give you an idea, the house didn't have a sauna and Justin really likes to have a sauna for after the show, for example. So what I did, I ran to sauna.com. Exactly. Yeah. So I put a mobile sauna in there and a Jacuzzi and then once they arrived, it was like, you get the shopping and the grocery list from the chef. So you get, you know, all the best ingredients. He put it in the refrigerator, et cetera. Then once he arrives, it's like, oh, he really wants to play golf like for the next, in the next hour. Okay. But you need to privatize everything, of course, because, you know, you can't just put Justin on a golf court where everybody's up. So that's kind of what I did. And then all of a sudden, one of his team members, he said, um, you're really a great destination manager. And I said, oh, that's how they call it. I didn't even love it. I didn't even know what it was. It was just like, okay, let me fix it. You know, so that's what they call it destination manager and or destination management. And I was like, okay, well, let's put that to my title. Let's add that to my title then. I really didn't, I haven't, I didn't hear of that title. No, no, I didn't, I didn't know it either. And you were something that people, and that is, yeah, again, I keep saying it, that is what make people, attracts you to people, people attract to you. I mean, that's, that's, that's what the connection is, because you were so down to earth and, hey, I do it. Oh, what's it called? All right. Okay. I'll put that on my title. I have a similar experience, just not talk about me, but when I, I did a interview for a sustainable TV station back in the days. It's like 15 years ago. And I was working in solar energy. And I was doing the interview and the producer was so happy at the end of the interview was caught. And he applauded, he said, Mr. Sunshine. I was like, oh, that's a cute name. So I, I, no, honestly, I created my own website and my own projects, calling it calling it Mr. Sunshine. I was Mr. Sunshine for years. That's great. And honestly, yeah, yeah, yeah, funny. So, but back to you, Irene, because this is a great, these are great stories. Destination consultant. So can you give me a few examples of what you're doing right now, because Justin Bieber, how long is that ago? This was 2016. Okay. So we had COVID in between. And now it's 2025. What happened in those days? How did you, because COVID was no destination events. There was nothing going on. What happened? What did you do? Nothing happened. Well, a lot of stress happened. Yeah. I mean, events and travel. That's what I do. And the world stopped at that moment in 2020. That was like the last in line, you know, so to open again. So yeah, no, that was, that was awful. I mean, I mean, it was awful for the whole world. And, and yeah, no, a bad time. So we, we were building afterwards, you know, and trying to rebuild everything. And crazy year after COVID, because everybody wanted to party, you know, we can party again. So that was a crazy year. And now things have, the dust has settled how they, how they call it, right? So, yeah, no, still doing and planning events, private events, corporate events, organizing incentives for companies to wherever, Barcelona, New York, etc. And the other way around. So destination management, well, okay, my first client was Justin and then had a chair and, and I thought to myself, okay, but, you know, these artists, they come like once every five or maybe even 10 years, just in, in come back after 2016. So why don't I focus on the corporate side? Because just like myself, I go out with, with my groups of people, corporate groups of people to, for example, we can do, we could in Barcelona with them or whatever. You have those corporate groups that are coming in also inbound. So, and that's also destination management. So for example, I have two groups now that are coming in one from the UK, one is a group, well, the client is from Paris, but the group comes in from all over the world. And they just want to have two or three really good days, have a meeting, but also have like a nice dinner in the evening, go on a boat through the canals in Amsterdam, a lovely Amsterdam, you know them. Most beautiful place in the world. Yeah, yeah. So that's my destination manager. And then when Ed Sheeran comes, we should always hope that he calls us again, of course. So yeah, that's it. And, and again, the events and incentive, it just makes me happy. You know, it makes you happy. What also makes you happy is, I think you wrote a book just recently. I did. And the book is called Ixio, that's Dutch friend in English. It's, I see you. Tell me about your book. Why? Can I show it to you? Oh, yes, of course. Here it is. Ixio. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about your book. Tell me about it. If I, if I do this. Oh my gosh, this is exactly the, the right size. I never did that before. But yeah. Yeah, Ixio. Well, after, I think that the biggest contrast was always doing what I do for the artist. People had this idea of, oh, wow, she has a glamorous job, you know, doing all these events, working for the celebrities, etc. But what a lot of people didn't know is that I was a caregiver when I was at home for years. And the people who knew it were like, wow, this is such a great story and story of hope, story of connection, but also the contrast between those two worlds. So when it was COVID, the whole COVID period, I didn't have a lot to do. And I thought, okay, maybe this is the time. Why don't I just write a pitch and I send it to three publishers. And all three of them responded very positively. They wanted to have a, you know, conversation. So I spoke with all three of them. And yeah, that's kind of how it, how it went. And then October last year, here it is. But the story is in Dutch, we say, met een lachen en terraan with a smile and a tear. And it, every chapter is an anecdote. And it's literally anything. So it's about motherhood. It's about sisterhood. It's about my job. It's about grief. It's about marriage and divorce. And all the stuff that people don't talk about, but what happens really, really happens. And I think that the most important thing, I see you. Well, the subtitle says, the book is about consistency, acceptance, and caregiving with a touch of glamour. Okay. How cute. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. And what I wanted to, the message I want to spread with Xeo, I see you. Let's see each other. Let's truly see each other. Like, there's this quote, and I'm not sure if I say it correctly, but it's something like, just be kind to people because you never know what's going on. Exactly. I always say that. You never know what's the story behind the person. So, let's treat each other with kindness and respect. That's kind of what I always try to do. And the same with Xeo. We can judge easily and everybody. I mean, but everybody has their own story, why they do what they do. And if we see each other better, I think, yeah, I don't know, I think. For real. For each other, for real, we dare to see. For real. Exactly. I think it will create a better world also. Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. I'm so glad you said that. I recognize it. I always say that when I hear people talk about someone else or being unkind to someone else, when I notice that, I always say, I always say, be kind. Whatever the situation, you don't know what's going on, what struggle they're going through right now. The biggest smiles behind the biggest smiles can be the biggest struggles. Absolutely. Yeah, I agree. I do say don't confuse my kindness with weakness because I'm still Italian. I like that. I'm still Italian. Can you give me, what would your advice be to people trying to manage both personal hardship and professional ambition? Because that's what you did. Could you specify it a little bit more? What would you want to? People who are trying to manage both the personal hardship, that's what you had with your husband and keep the business going. So how do you keep all these balls in the air? It's in my book, probably the first chapter. I didn't have any other choice. You just do it. That's an honest answer. You just do it. I mean, this is my situation, but a lot of people are in a similar situation where they just need to keep on going. I mean, especially as an entrepreneur, you need to work or there's no money and there's no food on the table. And I'm a mom, a single mom. So there has to be food on the table. So always try to pick yourself up and move on. Dust yourself off. And try again. Yeah, exactly. And try again. That's definitely what I always did. And even though I'm this tiny little woman and girl in the past, I never, I think it's Rihanna who said, even if you're scared, just fake it. Just fake it. Just try to be as convinced about what you're going to do as possible and don't show the world your fear and just fake it. And that's what I always did. And it wasn't really bluff because I knew that I would deliver. It's not bluff, but... It's not the anxiety letting lead you. Yeah, exactly. And especially as a woman, you always have to convince the man that you can do the job and that you're able to do certain things too. Not all men, but... Is that still a thing? I don't want to jump to another subject, but that's still a thing? Also in your profession, you noticed that? I think it really depends on... Oh, definitely, it's still a thing. But I think it depends on what industry you work in. I do think that in the hospitality, there are a lot of females, of course, who work in hospitality. But still, if you look at the higher functions, or how do you call it? Like the higher title? Yeah, higher positions, yeah. Still a lot of white men. Yeah, that's true. Guilty. Gotta be honest. Yeah, well, no. I mean, that's something that I hopefully... Hopefully that will change. And it did, of course. It got better over the years. But I think we still got some work to do. Yeah. All right. I want to go back to your book. Where can listeners or viewers of this podcast follow your work and find your book? Well, to the Dutch people, it's in Dutch. So it's probably for the Dutch people. It's bol.com. Bol.com, yeah. That's the one in Holland. That's the fastest way and you will have it within 24 hours. Right. Okay. Any final thoughts for our listeners and viewers? Let's really see each other more. And I think that that counts for business as private. I mean, I think that if we do that... Because it also makes you do your job better. If I really see you, then I really understand what you require, what your needs and your wishes are. And then I can deliver even more. So that's business-wise. And yeah, on a personal level, let's be kind to each other. Amen to that. Irene, thank you so much for being on our show and sharing. Thank you for inviting me. I love it. I think we could have talked even for two hours. Yes. We can go on for hours. Maybe we'll do a second part too at some point. Who knows? Who knows? All right. Thank you so much.